Islam Conversion in Tunis

stm

Member
#41
You explicitly said Christians don't follow it. That is a judgment and hypocritical. You said that people of the book before and at the time of the prophet did not do Zina, which is just ridiculous because of course they did. To say that someone is not a Muslim is not something you can say. If someone practices but commits adultery, they are still Muslim. A Christian committing adultery is still a Christian and therefore your definition cannot determine who is and who is not because they break a religious law. I know English is not your first language but the way you have presented your argument or discussion comes across as hypocritical.
1/
a Muslim ,(or someone from the people of the book) who did "Zina" ,drunk Alcohol doese'nt put him out of his commity (still consedered as a muslim, or man/women of the book).But when we say muslims by default he don't do "Zina" as it's forbidden in islam.ok the some thing for the definition of the people of the book.
2/people of the book did "Zina" before After and in the time of prophet (but not like nowadays which is freeequent.)
i didn'nt say th opposite.Muslims also did that in the time of prophet.
3/Pratically , they(People of The book ) no longer exist , ...because they are the majority of them "mushrik" they don't beleive that there is no god but Allah, ..
"Christians don't follow it": This is what Ex-Christian Men of relegion say , not me.They are persons living with you , know YOUR relegion even better than you.,
I insisted on the fact that the woman of the book she must not be a prostitute (did the sex out of marriage) because it's forbidden fr a mulsem man(that he didn't do Adultery) to marry ,and EVEN a muslim girl ,if she did Adultery .Verse 3 Chapter 24(Al nour)
 

missmetal

Well-Known Member
#42
1/
a Muslim ,(or someone from the people of the book) who did "Zina" ,drunk Alcohol doese'nt put him out of his commity (still consedered as a muslim, or man/women of the book).But when we say muslims by default he don't do "Zina" as it's forbidden in islam.ok the some thing for the definition of the people of the book.
2/people of the book did "Zina" before After and in the time of prophet (but not like nowadays which is freeequent.)
i didn'nt say th opposite.Muslims also did that in the time of prophet.
3/Pratically , they(People of The book ) no longer exist , ...because they are the majority of them "mushrik" they don't beleive that there is no god but Allah, ..
"Christians don't follow it": This is what Ex-Christian Men of relegion say , not me.They are persons living with you , know YOUR relegion even better than you.,
I insisted on the fact that the woman of the book she must not be a prostitute (did the sex out of marriage) because it's forbidden fr a mulsem man(that he didn't do Adultery) to marry ,and EVEN a muslim girl ,if she did Adultery .Verse 3 Chapter 24(Al nour)
1. Wrong, sorry but that is just wrong. It is the 'IDEAL' to not do Zina, but they do and they are still muslims. So when we say or talk about 'muslims', we dont say 'muslims who dont do Zina'.
2. Its Frequent because there are less people who are religious in the world. 2 Bil registered christians, 1.2 bil registered muslims. 7 Billion people in the world. So again, a massive generalization, its like me saying all muslims are terrorists because it says to kill the infadels in the quran. Do you all go around killing people who dont agree with your religion? Nope!

The ex Christians have had issues with their lives and they convert to Islam because they want the structure that islam provides. Just like the ex Muslims who have issues with Islam and convert to Christianity because they want the be free from persecution or sharia, whatever the case is. People leave religions and find new ones for many many many reasons. This is a typical case of you believing and looking at only those who have converted to your religion and not looked at why people leave your religion and convert to others or dont practice it at all. Christians have the rights and freedoms to choose their path and thank god we still dont have religion running our countries. Religion does not make people good. It should enhance their lives, but all it has done is destroy so much.

3. Prostitute is a person who has sex for money, not someone who has sex outside of marriage. Male and Female. Therefore 'they' people of the book dont exist in all religions including yours because so many muslim men are screwing around before marriage. But of course we cant test them now can we?

I have a very broad knowledge of your religion and its rules. Rules are rules, and its up to the individuals to follow them or not. I get that it states these rules. It also states that you should not marry a women under false pretences and yet look how many practising tunisian muslims marry women for visa's and money.

Anyway, this is not getting anywhere, we just interpret things differently.
 

stm

Member
#43
1. Wrong, sorry but that is just wrong. It is the 'IDEAL' to not do Zina, but they do and they are still muslims. So when we say or talk about 'muslims', we dont say 'muslims who dont do Zina'.
2. Its Frequent because there are less people who are religious in the world. 2 Bil registered christians, 1.2 bil registered muslims. 7 Billion people in the world. So again, a massive generalization, its like me saying all muslims are terrorists because it says to kill the infadels in the quran. Do you all go around killing people who dont agree with your religion? Nope!

The ex Christians have had issues with their lives and they convert to Islam because they want the structure that islam provides. Just like the ex Muslims who have issues with Islam and convert to Christianity because they want the be free from persecution or sharia, whatever the case is. People leave religions and find new ones for many many many reasons. This is a typical case of you believing and looking at only those who have converted to your religion and not looked at why people leave your religion and convert to others or dont practice it at all. Christians have the rights and freedoms to choose their path and thank god we still dont have religion running our countries. Religion does not make people good. It should enhance their lives, but all it has done is destroy so much.

3. Prostitute is a person who has sex for money, not someone who has sex outside of marriage. Male and Female. Therefore 'they' people of the book dont exist in all religions including yours because so many muslim men are screwing around before marriage. But of course we cant test them now can we?

I have a very broad knowledge of your religion and its rules. Rules are rules, and its up to the individuals to follow them or not. I get that it states these rules. It also states that you should not marry a women under false pretences and yet look how many practising tunisian muslims marry women for visa's and money.

Anyway, this is not getting anywhere, we just interpret things differently.
1/yes i'm Talking about IDEAL ones.The some idea :p
3/i want to say persons hwo do sex out of marriage , not protitute (i'm sorry)
 

stm

Member
#44
Just i have remarks here :
1/you said :"The ex Christians have had issues with their lives and they convert to Islam because they want the structure that islam provides. Just like the ex Muslims who have issues with Islam and convert to Christianity because they want the be free from persecution or sharia, whatever the case is..."---> But when we talk about a well know christian man that was a man of relegion for Christians become Muslim, it's different , and there are many who did that .People that convert to islam every day are numerous , just look to statics about that in Europe last years ,, soo many .Frankly I have never heard about a man of relegion converted from islam to ANYother relegion (i challenge u to give one name ) but ordinary people yes there are ,i confess.
2/You said "Christians have the rights and freedoms to choose their path and thank god we still dont have religion running our countries"
--->In islam also , people are not obliged to be Muslims (Verse 256 Chapter 2 (Al-bakara)) but,also ,In islam anybody who declared his "Islam" and after that convert to another relegion must be killed
-----
Happy to discuss that with u :)
 

Essem

Moderator
Staff member
#45
 

Kris

Administrator
Staff member
#46
What amazes me about this list is the number of professional god botherers on it switching codes.

Do what I say not what I do!
 

missmetal

Well-Known Member
#47
As you can see there is a list however it's hidden from being made public or openly discussed in your culture for several reasons

1. The most import - death. Although many normal thinking people would realise that the apostate law is probably about those who are enemy's of Islam, people who choose to physically fight the regime. Secondly to this I don't understand why anyone would see this as a law to physically kill someone who leaves Islam because ita like talking about their spiritual death. 3rdly about this law, why would kill them instead of trying to understand why they want to leave and rather help encourage them to stay or help then through whatever it is that is making them want to leave it. Seems disgusting to me and I would never follow such an ideology that advocates death if I don't want to follow it.

You mentioned there is no compulsion and people have the freedom. Well they don't always. People adjust to a way of life but is some I the stricter Islamic countries the women don't have the choice to not wear hijab. The men are of course the ones enforcing this stuff the most. Nevermind they do what they want to do. Some of the kids and teenagers study Islam for like 60-70% of their school day. That's not a choice now is it?

So death it is, of course the number of conversions is not made public all the time for the safety of the people.

2. As a result of the above, it's not a major discussion point amongst Muslims so you are not really aware of it. You're all too consumed with celebrating those who have converted and not really interested in looking at the otherside because you're made to believe that the stats are so low. It also gives you a false sense of unity because there are probably millions who say they are Muslim for their safety and don't practice. Make you all think that you're better off than you really are. Whilst your religion is growing, so are the numbers of people who are leaving religion all together.
It may be a competition between Muslims and Christians but for the most part people don't care who's practicing what as long as you keep it to your self or your religious circle.
In my area we have so many Persians who escaped the Islamic state of Iran and so many have abandoned the religion. Hope that all makes sense

Just i have remarks here :
1/you said :"The ex Christians have had issues with their lives and they convert to Islam because they want the structure that islam provides. Just like the ex Muslims who have issues with Islam and convert to Christianity because they want the be free from persecution or sharia, whatever the case is..."---> But when we talk about a well know christian man that was a man of relegion for Christians become Muslim, it's different , and there are many who did that .People that convert to islam every day are numerous , just look to statics about that in Europe last years ,, soo many .Frankly I have never heard about a man of relegion converted from islam to ANYother relegion (i challenge u to give one name ) but ordinary people yes there are ,i confess.
2/You said "Christians have the rights and freedoms to choose their path and thank god we still dont have religion running our countries"
--->In islam also , people are not obliged to be Muslims (Verse 256 Chapter 2 (Al-bakara)) but,also ,In islam anybody who declared his "Islam" and after that convert to another relegion must be killed
-----
Happy to discuss that with u :)
 
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stm

Member
#48
As you can see there is a list however it's hidden from being made public or openly discussed in your culture for several reasons

1. The most import - death. Although many normal thinking people would realise that the apostate law is probably about those who are enemy's of Islam, people who choose to physically fight the regime. Secondly to this I don't understand why anyone would see this as a law to physically kill someone who leaves Islam because ita like talking about their spiritual death. 3rdly about this law, why would kill them instead of trying to understand why they want to leave and rather help encourage them to stay or help then through whatever it is that is making them want to leave it. Seems disgusting to me and I would never follow such an ideology that advocates death if I don't want to follow it.

You mentioned there is no compulsion and people have the freedom. Well they don't always. People adjust to a way of life but is some I the stricter Islamic countries the women don't have the choice to not wear hijab. The men are of course the ones enforcing this stuff the most. Nevermind they do what they want to do. Some of the kids and teenagers study Islam for like 60-70% of their school day. That's not a choice now is it?

So death it is, of course the number of conversions is not made public all the time for the safety of the people.

2. As a result of the above, it's not a major discussion point amongst Muslims so you are not really aware of it. You're all too consumed with celebrating those who have converted and not really interested in looking at the otherside because you're made to believe that the stats are so low. It also gives you a false sense of unity because there are probably millions who say they are Muslim for their safety and don't practice. Make you all think that you're better off than you really are. Whilst your religion is growing, so are the numbers of people who are leaving religion all together.
It may be a competition between Muslims and Christians but for the most part people don't care who's practicing what as long as you keep it to your self or your religious circle.
In my area we have so many Persians who escaped the Islamic state of Iran and so many have abandoned the religion. Hope that all makes sense
0)I'm not here to promote for islam,we just discuss some ideas,,,Forget that i'm Muslim :p
1)
a)You said " I don't understand why anyone would see this as a law to physically kill someone who leaves Islam because ita like talking about their spiritual death.">>No , this is in the Religion , Islam don't oblige people to convert to islam but some leave it must be killed.Why Allah ordered Muslims to do that ,i don't have any idea Frankly.
b)You Said"You mentioned there is no compulsion and people have the freedom. Well they don't always. People adjust to a way of life but is some I the stricter Islamic countries the women don't have the choice to not wear hijab. The men are of course the ones enforcing this stuff the most. Nevermind they do what they want to do. Some of the kids and teenagers study Islam for like 60-70% of their school day. That's not a choice now is it?"===> Yes muslims , have t learn their relegion (this is logic , because islam is Constitution, talk about all the muslims's life: treaating non muslims, neighbours , wife , how to do salat, commerce,contracts ,all things) but in the same time must take care of all other science , Verse 11 chapter 58(Al-mojadila).Yes women in islam, have to wear hijab , i don't have a scientific research that talsk about that,or a good knowledge about reasons of this order ,that i can add it , but muslims beleive that this is for the best of the woman herself.
c)You Said "So death it is, of course the number of conversions is not made public all the time for the safety of the people."==> this argument can not be in your favour because killing muslims after they left islam , is rarely done nowadays ,it's applied only in Mekka i think.In fact it must be applied in a Real islamic State (That apply all the "shariaa") this dosen't exist nowadays,, only in Syria maybe
and in Saoudi Arabia(i 'm not sure)
I think that you took these information from Media(that often try to give a bad idea about islam,,and the magic equality isalm=Terrorism ,, unfortunallety this found even in arabic countries), try to avoid such source of info.
I don't know why( if really u beleive in all these things about Islam)you don't look for "Imam" or a muslim in your coutry that he has enough knowledge about Islam,it could be better as a reference if u are interested of course.GIVE Muslims the chance to speak about themselves before hearing about them.Hear From them instead of Hearing about them (it's a arabic proverbe , i don't know if i have converted it well :p )
2)
a)You said "As a result of the above, it's not a major discussion point amongst Muslims so you are not really aware of it. You're all too consumed with celebrating those who have converted and not really interested in looking at the otherside because you're made to believe that the stats are so low"==>No no the "the otherside" still negligible , don't waste ur time in looking for statistics, because i'm sure for 100%, that the movement to islam is more greater, than in the other direction
b)You Said "It may be a competition between Muslims and Christians but for the most part people don't care who's practicing what as long as you keep it to your self or your religious circle."===> There is no competetion , if it's so why in Islam Christians and jewish that live in the islamic Country and pay the "Jezya" must be treated very well?
I want to give something nice here: in Quran the verse 8 chapter 60(Al-Momtahina )(that speaks about this point ) used the verb "تبروهم " whitch means in arabic to treat someone verry well , the best u can , and in the hole Quran and Sunnah , this verb is used only when Allah ,and his messenger speaks about the way Muslim must treat his parents:so muslims have to treat non muslims that pay "aljezya" and live between the as they treat their parents-->So if Islam take this as a comptiton as u see , it will start by killing non muslims in the country of islam before killing muslims that leave this relegion .
C) You Said "In my area we have so many Persians who escaped the Islamic state of Iran and so many have abandoned the religion. Hope that all makes sense"----> this makes me sure now that u don't really have a good idea about islam.:
"the Islamic state of Iran" is not a muslim country, :eek: What a crazy , you don't see The word "Islamic" there , are u Blind?? no i'm not Blind, i know very much what i'm saying, this is another BIG subject , let's finish this one before,, :p
5) i like so much ur RESPECTFUL discussion, and i thank u very much for that every time :), I feel so happy to talk with u , .Personally i respect all persons whatever is his relegious while he is respecting me , and i'm not here to promote for islam, but i just tried to participate in this debate because i think that i have a small idea about islam, so i try to share it with that's all. ;) .
6) If You have some knowlaedge about physiks (thing like atomiic Number, Big Bang,...), biology.... we can turn it to a scientific debate , miracles of Quran here are numerous in all scientific and non scientific fields, and this is what makes many of non muslims come to islam, that's what really makes me sure about what i'm Beleiving .Maybe you think that i'm muslim, because i was born in a muslim counntry, euuh , no no it's more than that, it's bigger than that.
:)
 
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stm

Member
#49
Nice Essem, i thin u for ur participation. :)
1)Look for Arabic names, you gave many non arabic ones , so i filtered by my self and i found about 5 articles from what u have just given.
NB : there are many invalid links also.
2)
a) First one : Called mansouri :(http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/Mansour/index.html)
the document starts with "First stage of his life as a Muslim His name is Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Ibn Mansour. He was born in Sohag the Capital of the Province of Girga in Upper Egypt..." => i doubt about that, because a sheikh dosen't follow "the Soufi ways " as it's mentionned in ligne 15 in the same document :"following the ways of the great Sufis."
b) Second One:called Saleh Hussaini :this link (http://www.1cubed.com/display.php?ID=35&sectionID=32) :Out of the Subject
c)Third:Imad ud-Din Lahiz(althougth the name is composed from a none arabic part ) :
Is not a sheikh, is just a writer , converted Quran to another language, and talked many time about debate between Muslims and Christians (ligne 5)
d) fourth : Hors subject (http://www.jesus.org.uk/)
e)This one :Khalif Majid Hassan : (link :http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/hassan.html)
Just look the first sentence : "I had been raised as a Christian in a predominately White church."
:meh: If u don't read the articles that u pass why so should i do ?
First time i saw ur answer, i waited to find someone in our generation or age, but all of them are in the black and white age :p
in the other side if i give you names that converted to islam u will be surprised maybe
 

Essem

Moderator
Staff member
#50
Hi stm

Why does it have to be only Arabic names - there are many non Arabic muslims - or do Arabs have the monopoly on Islam? I think not. I believe that Indian and Indonesian muslims outnumber Arab muslims or is this a misconception or myth even?

If you google Arabs who have left Islam you will find many, many articles including this one: http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/04/28/islamophobic-muslims-leave-islam-reading-quran/

It mentions some of the Muslim apostates such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ali Sina, Abull Kassem, etc - have a read and let us know what your views are.

Have you ever questioned your religion? Have you read the Bible or the Torah both older books from much older religions and IMO the basis for the Koran. And before you ask, I haven't - not interested one iota in any of it TBH.

I'm of the black and white era - :p - and also a Christian but I'm not religious because I recognize, that to too many people outside of the flock, Christianity looks like a series of rules, obligations, dictums, regulations, mandates, edicts and decrees — none of which, at base, have anything to do with Christianity.

But enough about me, back to you. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about 'religions' to argue or discuss at great length about them :oops:. It's really not something that matters to me, it's the people, their characters and depth of kindness that matter.
 

Essem

Moderator
Staff member
#51
And BTW I wouldn't be surprised about the number of people converting or reverting to Islam - there's even a FB page on it. A lot of it propaganda by the powers that be of course.

Like most people who 'find or change to another religion', IMO there's usually something fundamentally missing in their lives and I don't believe it's just religion.
 

stm

Member
#52
Hi stm

Why does it have to be only Arabic names - there are many non Arabic muslims - or do Arabs have the monopoly on Islam? I think not. I believe that Indian and Indonesian muslims outnumber Arab muslims or is this a misconception or myth even?

If you google Arabs who have left Islam you will find many, many articles including this one: http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/04/28/islamophobic-muslims-leave-islam-reading-quran/

It mentions some of the Muslim apostates such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ali Sina, Abull Kassem, etc - have a read and let us know what your views are.

Have you ever questioned your religion? Have you read the Bible or the Torah both older books from much older religions and IMO the basis for the Koran. And before you ask, I haven't - not interested one iota in any of it TBH.

I'm of the black and white era - :p - and also a Christian but I'm not religious because I recognize, that to too many people outside of the flock, Christianity looks like a series of rules, obligations, dictums, regulations, mandates, edicts and decrees — none of which, at base, have anything to do with Christianity.

But enough about me, back to you. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about 'religions' to argue or discuss at great length about them :oops:. It's really not something that matters to me, it's the people, their characters and depth of kindness that matter.
1)YOU SAID"Have you ever questioned your religion? Have you read the Bible or the Torah both older books from much older religions and IMO the basis for the Koran. And before you ask, I haven't - not interested one iota in any of it TBH. "===>i Did , i'm convinced 100% i swear.I didn't read too much about Taourah and Bible but i have some information and remeber that Allah talked about them in Koran ,.Maybe i know better than many Christians about their relegion,,:p there are many contradictins i the bible and Taourah .
2)YOU SAID "But enough about me, back to you. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about 'religions' to argue or discuss at great length about them :oops:. It's really not something that matters to me, it's the people, their characters and depth of kindness that matter."
==>Me also i have a small idea , so i find y self blocked sometimes, we just share what we know each other and we discuss it.The Characters and Depth of Kidness of people matter, But Relegion do too.Could you ask me Why we are created ? why all this world exists? why there is a life and then a Death?This is what gives the relegion his importance and that's why we need to take care about it.And then the relegion that's convinced me more is the one i have to follow .So how should we think, and as u do all thing to make happy the physical ur physical part u have to do for ur spiritual one.
3)Hhh yes i know u are from Black and White epoque but could u give names from this age, the age of colours of mine :p .IMPOSSIBLE MISSION hhhh
No , non arabic names , , they are from the birth , non muslims in general , and they come from another society, so his knowledge seems to be doubtful :p (i didn't find words to explain well what i want to say :\ ).Look , ESTES YUSEF , is a example of a man of relegion moved from Chrisianity to Islam, he even stills alife..give someone like this one to make easy, i don't have the time to read a lot article frankly, i .Iread all that u passed to me , and took to me more than an Hour, i many thing to do :p .Ohhh U are all against my points of view and i answer all ur questins , i'm alone :( .No one wants to give me a hand?
 
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stm

Member
#53
And BTW I wouldn't be surprised about the number of people converting or reverting to Islam - there's even a FB page on it. A lot of it propaganda by the powers that be of course.

Like most people who 'find or change to another religion', IMO there's usually something fundamentally missing in their lives and I don't believe it's just religion.
Hhh, Ok , let's say it's propaganda and not True.Why you don't ask some one from ur country about that ? u will see the surprinsing reallity ,, It came that 1250 person and in the some time ,together ,in Deutch i think or UK converted to islam , they all said the "Shahada", and without oppression or obligation , as says/thinks "missmental " often .
 

missmetal

Well-Known Member
#54
0)I'm not here to promote for islam,we just discuss some ideas,,,Forget that i'm Muslim :p
1)
a)You said " I don't understand why anyone would see this as a law to physically kill someone who leaves Islam because ita like talking about their spiritual death.">>No , this is in the Religion , Islam don't oblige people to convert to islam but some leave it must be killed.Why Allah ordered Muslims to do that ,i don't have any idea Frankly.
yes, I know it's in he religion but in my opinion it's misinterpeted. We talk about spiritual death in Christianity, the death of your relationship with God. I don't believe it was meant to be physical death. We will never agree


b)You Said"You mentioned there is no compulsion and people have the freedom. Well they don't always. People adjust to a way of life but is some I the stricter Islamic countries the women don't have the choice to not wear hijab. The men are of course the ones enforcing this stuff the most. Nevermind they do what they want to do. Some of the kids and teenagers study Islam for like 60-70% of their school day. That's not a choice now is it?"===> Yes muslims , have t learn their relegion (this is logic , because islam is Constitution, talk about all the muslims's life: treaating non muslims, neighbours , wife , how to do salat, commerce,contracts ,all things) but in the same time must take care of all other science , Verse 11 chapter 58(Al-mojadila).Yes women in islam, have to wear hijab , i don't have a scientific research that talsk about that,or a good knowledge about reasons of this order ,that i can add it , but muslims beleive that this is for the best of the woman herself.
my point is, it's not practiced like this in many strict countries, even the Ottoman Empire practiced this and the Islamic students fell behind.

c)You Said "So death it is, of course the number of conversions is not made public all the time for the safety of the people."==> this argument can not be in your favour because killing muslims after they left islam , is rarely done nowadays ,it's applied only in Mekka i think.In fact it must be applied in a Real islamic State (That apply all the "shariaa") this dosen't exist nowadays,, only in Syria maybe
and in Saoudi Arabia(i 'm not sure)
I think that you took these information from Media(that often try to give a bad idea about islam,,and the magic equality isalm=Terrorism ,, unfortunallety this found even in arabic countries), try to avoid such source of info.
I don't know why( if really u beleive in all these things about Islam)you don't look for "Imam" or a muslim in your coutry that he has enough knowledge about Islam,it could be better as a reference if u are interested of course.GIVE Muslims the chance to speak about themselves before hearing about them.Hear From them instead of Hearing about them (it's a arabic proverbe , i don't know if i have converted it well :p )
2)
nope I don't believe Islam = terrorism but since you are all so into your sharia law, therefor it would be in practice. Therefor many people would be against sharia. Just because it's not practiced in all countries it does not mean that it's not the desire of most who want sharia in their countries. I think it's great that it's not actually practiced in many countries. Good for them. I live with a Muslim and I have Muslims friends. Luckily, they don't want to kill someone who they know decides to leave the religion. But it's for this reason I will never follow an ideology that has a law that someone must be killed. Those people who are not actually advocating death, are in my opinion good examples of the religion. Those who want swag, are bad examples. It's too militant!

a)You said "As a result of the above, it's not a major discussion point amongst Muslims so you are not really aware of it. You're all too consumed with celebrating those who have converted and not really interested in looking at the otherside because you're made to believe that the stats are so low"==>No no the "the otherside" still negligible , don't waste ur time in looking for statistics, because i'm sure for 100%, that the movement to islam is more greater, than in the other direction
b)You Said "It may be a competition between Muslims and Christians but for the most part people don't care who's practicing what as long as you keep it to your self or your religious circle."===> There is no competetion , if it's so why in Islam Christians and jewish that live in the islamic Country and pay the "Jezya" must be treated very well?
most likely because hey have lived there for years. However there were many driven out of Islamic countries despite the rules to say they can live there, not everyone agreed to the islamic rules. Simple! If they don't agree they are pushed out or punished. But what bugs the crap out do me, is that western countries are trying to have a multicultural society where you can practice your faith freely, there is no tax because you're from a different religion or culture. All are equal. Far more equal than Islam or any other religion. And in Islam, it's all talk....Islam is about equality and everyone who is Muslim is equal, no matter their colour. But only if your Muslim and still in theory. The whole Islamic world has a huge hierarchy of who is the elite and who is the lowest class.


I want to give something nice here: in Quran the verse 8 chapter 60(Al-Momtahina )(that speaks about this point ) used the verb "تبروهم " whitch means in arabic to treat someone verry well , the best u can , and in the hole Quran and Sunnah , this verb is used only when Allah ,and his messenger speaks about the way Muslim must treat his parents:so muslims have to treat non muslims that pay "aljezya" and live between the as they treat their parents-->So if Islam take this as a comptiton as u see , it will start by killing non muslims in the country of islam before killing muslims that leave this relegion .
C) You Said "In my area we have so many Persians who escaped the Islamic state of Iran and so many have abandoned the religion. Hope that all makes sense"----> this makes me sure now that u don't really have a good idea about islam.

"the Islamic state of Iran" is not a muslim country, :eek: What a crazy , you don't see The word "Islamic" there , are u Blind?? no i'm not Blind, i know very much what i'm saying, this is another BIG subject , let's finish this one before,, :p [\QUOTE]

well it is a country, it's on the map and as usual, it's their version of Islam and so will everyone else who runs a country want their version.it will never be like your golden days . Muslims have killed non Muslims and there are many Muslims who think they have to kill the non believers, rape the women who are non believers. And so on. Once again a misinterpreted piece of text that is 1400 yrs old for anyone to interpret as they see fit.

5) i like so much ur RESPECTFUL discussion, and i thank u very much for that every time :), I feel so happy to talk with u , .Personally i respect all persons whatever is his relegious while he is respecting me , and i'm not here to promote for islam, but i just tried to participate in this debate because i think that i have a small idea about islam, so i try to share it with that's all. ;) .
6) If You have some knowlaedge about physiks (thing like atomiic Number, Big Bang,...), biology.... we can turn it to a scientific debate , miracles of Quran here are numerous in all scientific and non scientific fields, and this is what makes many of non muslims come to islam, that's what really makes me sure about what i'm Beleiving .Maybe you think that i'm muslim, because i was born in a muslim counntry, euuh , no no it's more than that, it's bigger than that.
:)
I totally enjoy this type of debate, but with all respect you cannot convince me of your version that this is a wonderful religion. There are those in Saudi who are coming out as atheists now, and whilsts you might think Islam conversions are the gresatest, that perfectly fine and normal, but what is practised is far more important. People don't trust Muslims because of the few 500 000 or so they make the news as extremists. There are plenty who are great and fine citizens but those living in the Middle East especially, so many people think that there's always another agenda. The agenda to change our society to sharia and push people to convert. Despite there is no obligation, there are ways to push people to convert. Ex, if you don't convert we will kill you because we can't kill Muslims. Stuff like that.

For the most part tho, we just won't agree on this ideology. As for science, well we already disagree on that too. I believe in evolution and you don't...well maybe you do but only for the last 10 000 yrs. I know lots of Muslim scholars discovered some good scientific stuff, but then they started making students study Islam for 6hrs a day instead of learning more relevant stuff to progress as a society. I don't say it's wrong to learn Islam,but sadly there is no balance when doing it for most of your school day.
 
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Essem

Moderator
Staff member
#55
'
Hhh, Ok , let's say it's propaganda and not True.Why you don't ask some one from ur country about that ? u will see the surprinsing reallity ,, It came that 1250 person and in the some time ,together ,in Deutch i think or UK converted to islam , they all said the "Shahada", and without oppression or obligation , as says/thinks "missmental " often .
'Missmental'...... Oops :eek::p
 

stm

Member
#59
yes, I know it's in he religion but in my opinion it's misinterpeted. We talk about spiritual death in Christianity, the death of your relationship with God. I don't believe it was meant to be physical death. We will never agree
yes, I know it's in he religion but in my opinion it's misinterpeted. We talk about spiritual death in Christianity, the death of your relationship with God. I don't believe it was meant to be physical death. We will never agree




my point is, it's not practiced like this in many strict countries, even the Ottoman Empire practiced this and the Islamic students fell behind.



nope I don't believe Islam = terrorism but since you are all so into your sharia law, therefor it would be in practice. Therefor many people would be against sharia. Just because it's not practiced in all countries it does not mean that it's not the desire of most who want sharia in their countries. I think it's great that it's not actually practiced in many countries. Good for them. I live with a Muslim and I have Muslims friends. Luckily, they don't want to kill someone who they know decides to leave the religion. But it's for this reason I will never follow an ideology that has a law that someone must be killed. Those people who are not actually advocating death, are in my opinion good examples of the religion. Those who want swag, are bad examples. It's too militant!



most likely because hey have lived there for years. However there were many driven out of Islamic countries despite the rules to say they can live there, not everyone agreed to the islamic rules. Simple! If they don't agree they are pushed out or punished. But what bugs the crap out do me, is that western countries are trying to have a multicultural society where you can practice your faith freely, there is no tax because you're from a different religion or culture. All are equal. Far more equal than Islam or any other religion. And in Islam, it's all talk....Islam is about equality and everyone who is Muslim is equal, no matter their colour. But only if your Muslim and still in theory. The whole Islamic world has a huge hierarchy of who is the elite and who is the lowest class.



my point is, it's not practiced like this in many strict countries, even the Ottoman Empire practiced this and the Islamic students fell behind.



nope I don't believe Islam = terrorism but since you are all so into your sharia law, therefor it would be in practice. Therefor many people would be against sharia. Just because it's not practiced in all countries it does not mean that it's not the desire of most who want sharia in their countries. I think it's great that it's not actually practiced in many countries. Good for them. I live with a Muslim and I have Muslims friends. Luckily, they don't want to kill someone who they know decides to leave the religion. But it's for this reason I will never follow an ideology that has a law that someone must be killed. Those people who are not actually advocating death, are in my opinion good examples of the religion. Those who want swag, are bad examples. It's too militant!



most likely because hey have lived there for years. However there were many driven out of Islamic countries despite the rules to say they can live there, not everyone agreed to the islamic rules. Simple! If they don't agree they are pushed out or punished. But what bugs the crap out do me, is that western countries are trying to have a multicultural society where you can practice your faith freely, there is no tax because you're from a different religion or culture. All are equal. Far more equal than Islam or any other religion. And in Islam, it's all talk....Islam is about equality and everyone who is Muslim is equal, no matter their colour. But only if your Muslim and still in theory. The whole Islamic world has a huge hierarchy of who is the elite and who is the lowest class.
1)You SAID"my point is, it's not practiced like this in many strict countries, even the Ottoman Empire practiced this and the Islamic students fell behind.
"==> i'm not sure, but when we speak about islam we refer to what is in islam, not what is was in the age of Ottman.This tile i think u took this from the TV series of Nessma.hh Good Nesma that shows the truth always :p
2)YOU SAID "nope I don't believe Islam = terrorism but since you are all so into your sharia law, therefor it would be in practice. Therefor many people would be against sharia. Just because it's not practiced in all countries it does not mean that it's not the desire of most who want sharia in their countries. I think it's great that it's not actually practiced in many countries. Good for them. I live with a Muslim and I have Muslims friends. Luckily, they don't want to kill someone who they know decides to leave the religion. But it's for this reason I will never follow an ideology that has a law that someone must be killed. Those people who are not actually advocating death, are in my opinion good examples of the religion. Those who want swag, are bad examples. It's too militant!
"==> This ur point of view, but for me , when someone is cnvincid that this the rigth relegion , he have too apply all his contents.i have friends all over the world , they are nice and we respect each other, but i will never be ashame about this order(killing people that go out islam ...) because this is my relegion, and u have to know not any he will do that, i will not kill it myself , no there is a group ordered by the islmic goverment do take care about if not it will be a disorder.
3)YOU SAID"most likely because hey have lived there for years. However there were many driven out of Islamic countries despite the rules to say they can live there, not everyone agreed to the islamic rules. Simple! If they don't agree they are pushed out or punished. But what bugs the crap out do me, is that western countries are trying to have a multicultural society where you can practice your faith freely, there is no tax because you're from a different religion or culture. All are equal. Far more equal than Islam or any other religion. And in Islam, it's all talk....Islam is about equality and everyone who is Muslim is equal, no matter their colour. But only if your Muslim and still in theory. The whole Islamic world has a huge hierarchy of who is the elite and who is the lowest class.

"Come to islam so hhh .Jewish and Christians don't pay "Jezya" now , but normally they must pay.Muslims don't agree? it's not their choice. the first i will protect NON muslims in the islamic country if they are paying Jezya
4)i see you're Trying to find weaknesses(in the reality they aren't) , this is nothing because i insist again on the scientific miracles that are included in this relegion before discovered now, and Writen before 1400 years ,
 

missmetal

Well-Known Member
#60
I will reference each number

1. No buddy, I dont even know what Nessma tv is, I dont live in Tunisia. but I studied history. I am completely aware of the benefits of the ottoman empire to the islamic world, but also aware of how it was not a benefit to many of those who were non muslim. I look for historical facts, not ideological references to the way it *should* be done.

2. And here again, I cant support something where people follow an ideology blindly without question or challenge and progression. It might be appropriate for 1400 yrs ago, but certainly not appropriate for today. Death squad or not. Killing someone for wanting to leave a religion is barbaric

3. Well there's another reason not to support such an ideology, because protection comes with conditions like having to pay money to the islamic state for those who are not muslim. In the west we all supposed to pay our taxes, regardless of who you are, where you come from or who you worship. we all benefit from the protection of the state.

4. I dont need to look for weakness, there are weakness...and you are allowed to disagree and see it as the best thing ever invented. I already know that about you and your religion. However there's plenty of weakness as I have pointed out, but as I am a person of the west, we totally recognise that all ideologies have weaknesses and thats why they are constantly being improved as society changes and grows. The biggest flaw of the religion are the people that follow it. Without people to follow the religion it will be nothing. The blind faith of so many, including those who have blind faith in christianity and judaism and the rest of it. the human condition is not designed by the God that we all follow to be stale and non progressive. Change is part of who we are and the reason why muslims are so divided is because you cant all agree on your interpretation of it. Its perfectly fine to say that the Quran has never been changed, but that does not stop the fact that its interpreted by the scholars very differently. The biggest divide between shia and sunnis but theres smaller groups who also do things differently.

you can hold onto that pipe dream of our religion has never changed, but it has changed because without the people fulfilling the ideology, it would not exist. The people are the ones who change it because of how they interpret it.

As for your scientific miracles...well there is no point in discussing these, because we dont agree on the definition of miracles. Plus Science was not invented by Arabs and Muslims, people were experimenting and discovering stuff since the beginning of time. But if what you say about the miracles of science in the book convinces you that this is to be true and the best religion, then power to you. I think this is what holds muslims back from progressing in the world.
Its as if the Muslims such as your self all seem to think that well all these miracles happened and the best religion was created, so all we need to do in life is just pray and follow the religion, so all will be great for us. No determination to make something out of your lives and better yourself, help yourself first and then your neighbours so to speak. Lets just leave it up to God and what will be will be. Therefore, very little success in life.

1)You SAID"my point is, it's not practiced like this in many strict countries, even the Ottoman Empire practiced this and the Islamic students fell behind.
"==> i'm not sure, but when we speak about islam we refer to what is in islam, not what is was in the age of Ottman.This tile i think u took this from the TV series of Nessma.hh Good Nesma that shows the truth always :p
2)YOU SAID "nope I don't believe Islam = terrorism but since you are all so into your sharia law, therefor it would be in practice. Therefor many people would be against sharia. Just because it's not practiced in all countries it does not mean that it's not the desire of most who want sharia in their countries. I think it's great that it's not actually practiced in many countries. Good for them. I live with a Muslim and I have Muslims friends. Luckily, they don't want to kill someone who they know decides to leave the religion. But it's for this reason I will never follow an ideology that has a law that someone must be killed. Those people who are not actually advocating death, are in my opinion good examples of the religion. Those who want swag, are bad examples. It's too militant!
"==> This ur point of view, but for me , when someone is cnvincid that this the rigth relegion , he have too apply all his contents.i have friends all over the world , they are nice and we respect each other, but i will never be ashame about this order(killing people that go out islam ...) because this is my relegion, and u have to know not any he will do that, i will not kill it myself , no there is a group ordered by the islmic goverment do take care about if not it will be a disorder.
3)YOU SAID"most likely because hey have lived there for years. However there were many driven out of Islamic countries despite the rules to say they can live there, not everyone agreed to the islamic rules. Simple! If they don't agree they are pushed out or punished. But what bugs the crap out do me, is that western countries are trying to have a multicultural society where you can practice your faith freely, there is no tax because you're from a different religion or culture. All are equal. Far more equal than Islam or any other religion. And in Islam, it's all talk....Islam is about equality and everyone who is Muslim is equal, no matter their colour. But only if your Muslim and still in theory. The whole Islamic world has a huge hierarchy of who is the elite and who is the lowest class.

"Come to islam so hhh .Jewish and Christians don't pay "Jezya" now , but normally they must pay.Muslims don't agree? it's not their choice. the first i will protect NON muslims in the islamic country if they are paying Jezya
4)i see you're Trying to find weaknesses(in the reality they aren't) , this is nothing because i insist again on the scientific miracles that are included in this relegion before discovered now, and Writen before 1400 years ,
1)You SAID"my point is, it's not practiced like this in many strict countries, even the Ottoman Empire practiced this and the Islamic students fell behind.
"==> i'm not sure, but when we speak about islam we refer to what is in islam, not what is was in the age of Ottman.This tile i think u took this from the TV series of Nessma.hh Good Nesma that shows the truth always :p
2)YOU SAID "nope I don't believe Islam = terrorism but since you are all so into your sharia law, therefor it would be in practice. Therefor many people would be against sharia. Just because it's not practiced in all countries it does not mean that it's not the desire of most who want sharia in their countries. I think it's great that it's not actually practiced in many countries. Good for them. I live with a Muslim and I have Muslims friends. Luckily, they don't want to kill someone who they know decides to leave the religion. But it's for this reason I will never follow an ideology that has a law that someone must be killed. Those people who are not actually advocating death, are in my opinion good examples of the religion. Those who want swag, are bad examples. It's too militant!
"==> This ur point of view, but for me , when someone is cnvincid that this the rigth relegion , he have too apply all his contents.i have friends all over the world , they are nice and we respect each other, but i will never be ashame about this order(killing people that go out islam ...) because this is my relegion, and u have to know not any he will do that, i will not kill it myself , no there is a group ordered by the islmic goverment do take care about if not it will be a disorder.
3)YOU SAID"most likely because hey have lived there for years. However there were many driven out of Islamic countries despite the rules to say they can live there, not everyone agreed to the islamic rules. Simple! If they don't agree they are pushed out or punished. But what bugs the crap out do me, is that western countries are trying to have a multicultural society where you can practice your faith freely, there is no tax because you're from a different religion or culture. All are equal. Far more equal than Islam or any other religion. And in Islam, it's all talk....Islam is about equality and everyone who is Muslim is equal, no matter their colour. But only if your Muslim and still in theory. The whole Islamic world has a huge hierarchy of who is the elite and who is the lowest class.

"Come to islam so hhh .Jewish and Christians don't pay "Jezya" now , but normally they must pay.Muslims don't agree? it's not their choice. the first i will protect NON muslims in the islamic country if they are paying Jezya
4)i see you're Trying to find weaknesses(in the reality they aren't) , this is nothing because i insist again on the scientific miracles that are included in this relegion before discovered now, and Writen before 1400 years ,
 
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