Letter from Father - now needing a stamp!!!

Tunisianbelle

Well-Known Member
#61
I truly think you are all missing the point I am trying to make. I am not saying that Tunisia is 100% right in everything, because there are many things I disagree with. But I refuse to engage in a futile argument of saying this is fair or unfair when it has absolutely no bearing. Whether you like it or hate it, the law is the law and you must abide by it. End of story. You expect others to obey the law when you go to their coutry, so you should obey the law when you are here.

Like I said, Tunisia is not the only one who has the passport law. Who said that mixed children born in Tunisia want the nationality of the other country? Yet no one seems to make a fuss about them having that second passport "because it opens more doors". Having a Tunisian passport may not be as freeing as a UK or US passport, but it doesn't close any doors either. And it actually does allow for them to visit some countries that the US and/or UK are in arguments with. I for one would love to be able to visit Cuba because the country and history there fascinate me. Unfortunately, US citizens are prohibited from visiting unless they have family or a specific job there and they must first obtain a special license to do so. There are other countries that have beautiful, historical and/or interesting places that I would love to visit, but on a US passport am unable. Having a Tunisian passport would open up the WHOLE world.

I do wonder how many of you would be this resistant to your child having a second passport from a country such as the US, Canada, or within the EU?


If you don't want your children to be considered Tunisian, then why on earth did you get married with and/or have children with a Tunisian? Why deny them one half of their heritage? When it comes to having children, and/or being in a mixed marriage, there are MANY things you must think about, many situations you need to consider, and many things you and your partner must come to an agreement on.
 

Tunisianbelle

Well-Known Member
#62
As for the letter, I understand everyone thinking it's not fair, but I have the opposite view and here is why:

There is less than 1% of foreign men who marry with a Tunisian woman because of the fact that a man has to be Muslim to marry a Tunisian.

Many Tunisian men are marrying with foreign women, and there have been a lot of cases where the woman takes the child to her country and the man never sees the child(ren) again.

Due to this, the law was created so that a foreign mother needs the fathers permission to leave with the children to ensure she is not kidnapping them away from him. That is why the law seems one sided.

If a Tunisian mother wants to travel outside of the country with her children, she does not need such a permission. Why? Because Tunisia is her home country, where her family and friends are. Most people would not just up and leave their home country with kids in tow when a relationship fails. They would seek help from their family and friends, which means that the father normally would still be able to maintain some kind of contact with his children.
 

Tunisianbelle

Well-Known Member
#63
you are fortunate to have a happy life with a husband who loves you.
Alhamdulillah, I do feel fortunate for this. But I have been in a bad relationship (with an American) that had to deal with a lot of these very issues as well. I won't go into specifics but, looking back and being honest with myself, I can see that all the signs for how he would react at the end of the relationship were there since the beginning. Yes a person can change their attitude, their lifestyle, and people drift apart. But a persons fundamental character - their values, morals, who they are - do not change willy nilly overnight. I'm sure everyone, if honest with themselves, can say they saw signs of how the person would react/behave if the relationship ended, but (like me) didn't want to see or believe those signs at the time.

It is because of what I went through with my ex, that made me keep my eyes, and mind open and not just listen to my heart when I got in a relationship with my husband.
 

woudlg

New Member
#64
I take on board what you say, but I can't help but think you see Tunisia through rose tinted glasses, you are fortunate to have a happy life with a husband who loves you. Some are less fortunate, Why should they not be able to leave with their children if that is their wish. the father can always apply through the courts for access if he wished.
I except men make perfectly good lone parents. This was the case for my brother when his wife left him with their 18month old son while she went to "find herself". It was a struggle for him but he managed, only for her to claim him back 1 year later:mad: I'm not sure the benefits of having a Tunisian passport bring you. Tunisia seems to worry when their citizens wish to apply for visas to foreign countries if they will come back once they leave, I can't think this is the case the grass is'nt always greener on the other side.
It's not Tunisia that worries - proving intent to return to Tunisia is to satisfy the authorities issuing the visa (e.g. UK immigration) that a person won't overstay!!!
 

woudlg

New Member
#65
and why are people accusing Tunisianbelle of bias/viewing the world through rose-tinted glasses, when all she is doing is informing us of the law???? I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't think it's fair to make her the scapegoat for our gripes with Tunisian systems/laws. And to make personal comments about her relationship is irrelevant.
 
L

Lissy

Guest
#66
I am very surprised at the turn this thread has taken. If you live in a country other than your own (and before any one says anything I have lived in three different countries with different cultures) you have to abide by their laws. I have children with dual nationality as do I.

No country is perfect but you have to abide by those laws, such is life. I have yet to find a country where I agree with all the rules/laws but why should I be exempt from the ones I don't like? I cannot pick and choose in the UK and cannot anywhere else.

Having two passports is not a hindrence but in fact something very postitive, as TB said, as it opens up many more doors. I have found that some countries are more welcoming to one passport than to the other and this makes life much easier for me as a traveller.

Why is there always this discussion on women being less well treated here in Tunisia? I have found it to be quite the opposite. As TB rightly said about property...a woman's property is her own and the man cannot touch it...this has been Islamic law since Islam started (TB pls correct me if I am wrong), in the UK it was 1959 before a woman's property was no longer deemed to be her husband's after marriage.

My advice to ALL ladies wanting to marry someone who is not British....do research into what you are getting yourself into. Whether you marry a Frenchman, a German, an American, a Japanese, a Tunisian or Saudi etc you need to know about their culture and their laws, particularly in respect of children. There is no point in saying later "it's not fair, I don't like that law" because the law is the law. Even in Europe, if leave a country, in which the father/mother has visiting rights, without the father's knowledge and ok you will be done for kidnapping. Both you and the child/children will have to return to that country so that the rights of access can be fulfilled.

Sorry if I have ranted but I really feel strongly about this.
 

[email protected]

Active Member
#67
i can see the point of truly and if i was a mother i wouldn't want to have the feeling that my child "belongs" to his father .on the other hand i agree with Tunisian belle that through mixed marriages everything should be considered and especially when it involves children.now i know a lot of things i didn't know some months before. but if i was about to marry someone of other country ,religion,tradition i would like to know that except the nice words everyone says when in love what is reality and what the law is saying.
 

bobby g

Well-Known Member
#68
and why are people accusing Tunisianbelle of bias/viewing the world through rose-tinted glasses, when all she is doing is informing us of the law???? I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't think it's fair to make her the scapegoat for our gripes with Tunisian systems/laws. And to make personal comments about her relationship is irrelevant.
It was certainly not my intention to "accuse" Tunisianbelle of anything, if I have caused offence please accept my sincere appologies.
 

woudlg

New Member
#69
We shouldn't overlook that a man is often left vulnerable too in terms of accessing his children if he does not have a visa to travel outside of Tunisia (or indefinite leave to remain in the country where he resides). So, for example, a British woman could have a child by a Tunisian man and decide that she does not want to continue their relationship or for the man to have contact with the child, never returning to Tunisia again. In many ways, we have more choices and liberties than they do, albeit outside of Tunisia. I guess that the ultimate choice we make therefore is whether to take our children to Tunisia in the first place - and that is for each individual to weigh up, in knowledge of their own personal circumstances and of the law of the country.
 

Tunisianbelle

Well-Known Member
#70
We shouldn't overlook that a man is often left vulnerable too in terms of accessing his children if he does not have a visa to travel outside of Tunisia (or indefinite leave to remain in the country where he resides). So, for example, a British woman could have a child by a Tunisian man and decide that she does not want to continue their relationship or for the man to have contact with the child, never returning to Tunisia again. In many ways, we have more choices and liberties than they do, albeit outside of Tunisia. I guess that the ultimate choice we make therefore is whether to take our children to Tunisia in the first place - and that is for each individual to weigh up, in knowledge of their own personal circumstances and of the law of the country.
Exactly. And that is why the law was put in place. Like I mentioned earlier, only a small percentage of Tunisian women marry with foreign men, and most of the time when they do, they leave Tunisian to live in the other country. It is mainly men that marry with foreign woman and are therefore vulnerable to the mother taking the children away.

Other countries (US for example) may ask for permission from both parents instead of just the father, but you have to look at the reason. The reason is that those countries have a big majority of both male and female foreigners who are equally capable of taking their children out of the country.

In the case of the US, our country is still relatively new. It's a land of immigrants and ANYONE could up and leave with the children and take them to their country of origin. Even if the were born and raised in the US, it is easy to move to their originating country and the family would most likely help them find a job. It has happened before, is happening now, and will happen again. That is why they are getting stricter with parental permission when taking a child out of country, and even across state lines.

Whether I am traveling out of Tunisia or out of the US, I am always asked for a notarized letter from my husband allowing me to travel with the kids alone. It has never bothered me - it's something that I follow because it is the law.
 
S

suka

Guest
#71
I am British my children are British born to a British father I live in Tunisia and I HAD TO PRODUCE A LETTER OF AUTHORISATION FOR ME TO BRING MY CHILDREN TO LIVE IN TUNISIA! as my ex-husband is their father and has reasonable access to them although not joint custody.......the fact is if the officials in the UK where as quick to protect children in the UK as they are here the there would be fewer children kidnapped by an estranged parent be it mother or father.The british law states that no parent who has joint custody of a child can leave the country without the express permission of either the courts or the childrens estranged parent...and or those with parental rights.It also stated that an estranged parent with visitation rights can refuse to allow a child to be taken out of the county of residence if they believe that the child will not be returned.
There are countries in the world who will not let you enter as a single parent unles you can prove the child has no father with legal rights (illigitimate birth) or you have permission to remove the child in writing, Dominican republic is one such place.
The laws are not to punish you they are their to protect the rights of your child and his/her father who is unable to leave this country willy nilly not because his goverment wont allow it but because YOURS WILL NOT!!!
 

Trulymadlydeeply

Well-Known Member
#72
The point I was trying to make that you have missed is, Tbelle, Wouldlg, I have now known my ex for 15 years and believe me we discussed everything before and after we married. If we all lived in Tunisia as a family and that was all my son knew, and his father could not leave Tunisia then I can maybe see it differently. My argument is, and yes I know it is law, but obviously didnt forsee the divorce and the possible eventualities, and yes obviously law is law (how I wish the Uk was as strict) but mine my sons and his fathers life is here in the Uk. As you say Tbelle, his life, family, friends, schooling etc are all here in the Uk, this is why I get so angry to think my ex could go to Tunisia, or like all 3 of us have on vacation,and refuse to let him go home
This would definitely not be in the childs best interest, which takes prevalence here, not what the father thinks is best.
 

Trulymadlydeeply

Well-Known Member
#73
Oh and Cuba is great, My passport allows me to travel where I want to, and so does my sons,my EX's doesnt allow him to go anywhere much without having to obtain visas!!
 
S

suka

Guest
#74
if the father is with you they are not going to make the child stay.....if the father is not with you but in the uk, just take the letter.... as it is not worth the stress or worry that it could cause you or your child if you do get stopped and dont have the paperwork!!
The end of the day the law here is very clear on what they expect from you if you have a mixed marriage child.....they are not thinking of what is best for the father but if there is the slightest chance that the child is being removed without his knowledge.BTW TB said the reason for the law being introduced is true but there was a very specific incident that started the ball rolling and that was a woman who was previously married to a Tunisian and had three kiddies.This woman stayed in the UK for most of the marriage but came to Tunisia when her children had been put on an at risk list in the UK ....the father found out through the grandparents and promptly divorced his wife and claimed custody of his children on the grounds that she was unfit a fact proven by the powers that be in the UK.....She fled with the kiddies and went back to the UK where one of the children suffered immensly at her hands and eventually took his own life at the grand old age of 13!!! The UK refused to have have an agreement with Tunisia over the return of 'unlawfully removed children' so they brought in the child protection laws which are now in place.......bottom line is if the UK had agreed to work with Tunisia then you would not need the letter......
 

woudlg

New Member
#75
I do see your point Truly - in that both your ex and your son live here. So, if I'm right in thinking that your ex has obtained ILR in the UK, then there is nothing stopping him from seeing your son here. If you feel that the law could work against you (if you think that there's a real possibility that your ex might try and keep your son in Tunisia) I wonder if it'd be better for you both not to go???? Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of your situation, but, personally, if my relationship broke down (particularly if we were on bad terms) I'm not sure I'd be confident to take my little one to Tunisia, knowing that I'd be left in a vulnerable legal position. I'd be jumpy the whole time!!
 

Trulymadlydeeply

Well-Known Member
#76
That explanation is completely different to how it was explained in the previous post, and is understandable. I know what I need to do regarding the letter, I have always wanted my son to know his Tunisian side, I am not hiding him from it, nor ashamed, I cant remember the exact wording, someone mentioned why have a child with a Tunisian?????? Because I was bloody married to one!!!! Even since the divorce I have taken our son to Tunisia every year, in 2006 we were stopped for the 1st time as my son and I went through p.port control alone as I said many times here and on other threads my ex was at Monastir so just spoke to the officials. Last time my son and I went alone October 08, we were asked briefly about my ex , his name and where he was and why wasnt he with me???? We were allowed through. When did that happen what you have explained above, what year?
 

woudlg

New Member
#77
if the father is with you they are not going to make the child stay.....if the father is not with you but in the uk, just take the letter.... as it is not worth the stress or worry that it could cause you or your child if you do get stopped and dont have the paperwork!!
The end of the day the law here is very clear on what they expect from you if you have a mixed marriage child.....they are not thinking of what is best for the father but if there is the slightest chance that the child is being removed without his knowledge.BTW TB said the reason for the law being introduced is true but there was a very specific incident that started the ball rolling and that was a woman who was previously married to a Tunisian and had three kiddies.This woman stayed in the UK for most of the marriage but came to Tunisia when her children had been put on an at risk list in the UK ....the father found out through the grandparents and promptly divorced his wife and claimed custody of his children on the grounds that she was unfit a fact proven by the powers that be in the UK.....She fled with the kiddies and went back to the UK where one of the children suffered immensly at her hands and eventually took his own life at the grand old age of 13!!! The UK refused to have have an agreement with Tunisia over the return of 'unlawfully removed children' so they brought in the child protection laws which are now in place.......bottom line is if the UK had agreed to work with Tunisia then you would not need the letter......

What an awful story :-(
 
S

suka

Guest
#78
it was quite sometime ago and I am not 100% of year but it was early 80's and the woman had met her husband in the UK......but married here and then went back to UK with hubby who was at uni..he finished his education then returned here.....and then the problems started as outlined above.......it is an extreme case and yes very sad but does outline the failings of other goverments as well!
 

ROULLA

Registered User
#79
Hi Suka hope that you are in good health! I understand what everyone is saying about the law re: Tunisian passport but what i will not exept is someone telling me that my kids are only Tunisian..My kids are half Greek and half Tunisian, no matter what anyone says..I love Tunisia and i also love my husband but hey i am the person that gave birth to them so therefore they are classed as half and half, am i so wrong to say that..My kids know the history of Tunisia and Cyprus and that is the way that we all like it..Take care
 
S

suka

Guest
#80
Roulla....no one is saying your kids are only Tunisian the Tunisians are saying while they are on Tunisian soil they will be be treated as any Tunisian would be....same as when on Greek soil they would be treated as Greek,They are fortunate to have dual nationality which gives them rights in both countries it also means that they can be protected by both should that requirement ever arise.bottom line is if the children are protected in such a way that prevents tragedy then it can only be for the best,and I am sure as mothers that is what we want for our children at the end of the day!
wherever we live we have to abide by the law of the land not all are fair and not all are just but they have been made for a reason ans once we have an understanding of that reason it is easier to accept......
 
Top